The ego is a spurious entity, but an entity nonetheless, until we investigate it keenly enough to see that it does not actually exist
A friend wrote to me yesterday:
There are two levels or dimensions to the problem of using the term ‘the Self’: at a grosser level it tends to objectify ourself (implying that we are an object), but at a subtler level it tends to reify ourself (implying that we are a thing or entity).
Since our real nature (ātma-svarūpa) is neither an object nor an entity (because it is the vastu, the ultimate substance of all entities, and the adhiṣṭhāna or ādhāra, the fundamental ground from which and in which they all appear), we have to guard against such a confusion. However, in the case of our ego the problem is slightly different, because as the ego we are not an object but the subject, but as the subject we are an entity — the first entity and root of all other entities.
Therefore we should not objectify the ego, but until we investigate it keenly enough to see that it does not actually exist, we cannot avoid reifying it (that is, considering it to be an entity), and we must do so in order to distinguish and isolate it from all the objects of which it is aware, including all the adjuncts that it mistakes to be itself. Only when we isolate it from all its adjuncts will it dissolve and disappear forever, and then only will we know that there never was any such entity at all.
As Bhagavan clearly explained, though the ego seems to be both ourself and whatever adjuncts it mistakes to be ourself, it is actually neither ourself nor any adjunct, because it does not actually exist, as we shall discover if we investigate ourself keenly enough. The fact that it is neither ourself, who are sat-cit (being-awareness), nor the body, which is jaḍa (non-conscious or insentient), is explained by him in verse 24 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu:
The fact that it is a spurious entity that seems to exist only so long as we look at other things instead of looking keenly at ourself alone is also indicated by him in the next verse, verse 25 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu, in which he refers to it as ‘உருவற்ற பேய்’ (uru-v-aṯṟa pēy), a ‘formless phantom’, which comes into existence, stands and flourishes only by grasping forms (things other than itself), and which will cease to exist if we investigate it keenly enough:
As Bhagavan says in the first sentence of the seventh paragraph of Nāṉ Yār?, ‘யதார்த்தமா யுள்ளது ஆத்மசொரூப மொன்றே’ (yathārtham-āy uḷḷadu ātma-sorūpam oṉḏṟē), ‘What actually exists is only ātma-svarūpa [the ‘own form’ or real nature of oneself]’, so no entity ever actually exists, but so long as the first entity, the ego, seems to exist, other entities will also seem to exist, because it can never seem to exist without projecting and grasping other entities, some of which (such as a body) it takes to be itself. However if we look at this first entity keenly enough, we will clearly see that what seemed to be this ego is only ātma-svarūpa, the nature of which is just pure, infinite, indivisible and immutable self-awareness, so no such entity as the ego has ever existed as such, and hence no other entity has ever existed either, nor has any entity ever even seemed to exist (because they could seem to exist only in the view of the ego, which itself does not ever seem to exist except in its own non-existent view). To see this, all we need do is look at ourself carefully enough to see what we actually are.
You prefer using ‘ourself’ or ‘oneself’ or ‘I’ instead of ‘the Self’. It is because by using ‘the Self’ we tend to objectify ourself. So this point is clear. But then why do we use ‘the ego’? Are we likewise not objectifying ourself by using ‘the ego’?The following is adapted from the reply I wrote to him:
There are two levels or dimensions to the problem of using the term ‘the Self’: at a grosser level it tends to objectify ourself (implying that we are an object), but at a subtler level it tends to reify ourself (implying that we are a thing or entity).
Since our real nature (ātma-svarūpa) is neither an object nor an entity (because it is the vastu, the ultimate substance of all entities, and the adhiṣṭhāna or ādhāra, the fundamental ground from which and in which they all appear), we have to guard against such a confusion. However, in the case of our ego the problem is slightly different, because as the ego we are not an object but the subject, but as the subject we are an entity — the first entity and root of all other entities.
Therefore we should not objectify the ego, but until we investigate it keenly enough to see that it does not actually exist, we cannot avoid reifying it (that is, considering it to be an entity), and we must do so in order to distinguish and isolate it from all the objects of which it is aware, including all the adjuncts that it mistakes to be itself. Only when we isolate it from all its adjuncts will it dissolve and disappear forever, and then only will we know that there never was any such entity at all.
As Bhagavan clearly explained, though the ego seems to be both ourself and whatever adjuncts it mistakes to be ourself, it is actually neither ourself nor any adjunct, because it does not actually exist, as we shall discover if we investigate ourself keenly enough. The fact that it is neither ourself, who are sat-cit (being-awareness), nor the body, which is jaḍa (non-conscious or insentient), is explained by him in verse 24 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu:
சடவுடனா னென்னாது சச்சித் துதியாIn this verse ஒன்று (oṉḏṟu) is a noun that means ‘one’ in the sense of ‘one thing’ or ‘something’, so ‘நான் ஒன்று’ (nāṉ oṉḏṟu), ‘one [called] I’, implies something called ‘I’, and then in the next sentence he refers to it as ‘இது’ (idu), which means ‘this’ or ‘it’. Thus in this verse he indicates that the ego is a spurious entity (because it poses both as ourself and as a body, even though it is neither), but it is an entity nevertheless — or rather it seems to be an entity so long as it seems to exist, as it will until we look at it carefully enough to see what we actually are.
துடலளவா நானொன் றுதிக்கு — மிடையிலிது
சிச்சடக்கி ரந்திபந்தஞ் சீவனுட்ப மெய்யகந்தை
யிச்சமு சாரமன மெண்.
jaḍavuḍaṉā ṉeṉṉādu saccit tudiyā
duḍalaḷavā nāṉoṉ ḏṟudikku — miḍaiyilitu
ciccaḍakki ranthibandhañ jīvaṉuṭpa meyyahandai
yiccamu sāramaṉa meṇ.
பதச்சேதம்: சட உடல் ‘நான்’ என்னாது; சத்சித் உதியாது; உடல் அளவா ‘நான்’ ஒன்று உதிக்கும் இடையில். இது சித்சடக்கிரந்தி, பந்தம், சீவன், நுட்ப மெய், அகந்தை, இச் சமுசாரம், மனம்; எண்.
Padacchēdam (word-separation): jaḍa uḍal ‘nāṉ’ eṉṉādu; sat-cit udiyādu; uḍal aḷavā ‘nāṉ’ oṉḏṟu udikkum iḍaiyil. idu cit-jaḍa-giranthi, bandham, jīvaṉ, nuṭpa mey, ahandai, i-c-samusāram, maṉam; eṇ.
அன்வயம்: சட உடல் ‘நான்’ என்னாது; சத்சித் உதியாது; இடையில் உடல் அளவா ‘நான்’ ஒன்று உதிக்கும். இது சித்சடக்கிரந்தி, பந்தம், சீவன், நுட்ப மெய், அகந்தை, இச் சமுசாரம், மனம்; எண்.
Anvayam (words rearranged in natural prose order): jaḍa uḍal ‘nāṉ’ eṉṉādu; sat-cit udiyādu; iḍaiyil uḍal aḷavā ‘nāṉ’ oṉḏṟu udikkum. idu cit-jaḍa-giranthi, bandham, jīvaṉ, nuṭpa mey, ahandai, i-c-samusāram, maṉam; eṇ.
English translation: The jaḍa body does not say ‘I’; sat-cit does not rise; [but] in between [these two] one thing [called] ‘I’ rises as the extent of the body. Know that this [the adjunct-mixed self-awareness that rises as ‘I am this body’] is cit-jaḍa-granthi [the knot formed by the entanglement of awareness with an insentient body, binding them together as if they were one], bandha [bondage], jīva [life or soul], the subtle body, ahandai [the ego], this saṁsāra [wandering, perpetual movement, restless activity, worldly existence or the cycle of birth and death] and manam [the mind].
The fact that it is a spurious entity that seems to exist only so long as we look at other things instead of looking keenly at ourself alone is also indicated by him in the next verse, verse 25 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu, in which he refers to it as ‘உருவற்ற பேய்’ (uru-v-aṯṟa pēy), a ‘formless phantom’, which comes into existence, stands and flourishes only by grasping forms (things other than itself), and which will cease to exist if we investigate it keenly enough:
உருப்பற்றி யுண்டா முருப்பற்றி நிற்குBy saying all this about the ego, Bhagavan is not objectifying it, because every object is a form, and he says the ego is formless, but he is reifying it, because it seems to be an entity until we investigate it keenly enough to see that it does not exist and has never existed. When we see this, we will also see that nothing else except ourself has ever existed, because everything else (all objects or phenomena) seems to exist only in the view of this ego, so it all comes into seeming existence along with the ego and ceases to exist along with it, as he explains in verse 26 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu:
முருப்பற்றி யுண்டுமிக வோங்கு — முருவிட்
டுருப்பற்றுந் தேடினா லோட்டம் பிடிக்கு
முருவற்ற பேயகந்தை யோர்.
uruppaṯṟi yuṇḍā muruppaṯṟi niṟku
muruppaṯṟi yuṇḍumiha vōṅgu — muruviṭ
ṭuruppaṯṟun tēḍiṉā lōṭṭam piḍikku
muruvaṯṟa pēyahandai yōr.
பதச்சேதம்: உரு பற்றி உண்டாம்; உரு பற்றி நிற்கும்; உரு பற்றி உண்டு மிக ஓங்கும்; உரு விட்டு, உரு பற்றும்; தேடினால் ஓட்டம் பிடிக்கும், உரு அற்ற பேய் அகந்தை. ஓர்.
Padacchēdam (word-separation): uru paṯṟi uṇḍām; uru paṯṟi niṟkum; uru paṯṟi uṇḍu miha ōṅgum; uru viṭṭu, uru paṯṟum; tēḍiṉāl ōṭṭam piḍikkum, uru aṯṟa pēy ahandai. ōr.
அன்வயம்: உரு அற்ற பேய் அகந்தை உரு பற்றி உண்டாம்; உரு பற்றி நிற்கும்; உரு பற்றி உண்டு மிக ஓங்கும்; உரு விட்டு, உரு பற்றும்; தேடினால் ஓட்டம் பிடிக்கும். ஓர்.
Anvayam (words rearranged in natural prose order): uru aṯṟa pēy ahandai uru paṯṟi uṇḍām; uru paṯṟi niṟkum; uru paṯṟi uṇḍu miha ōṅgum; uru viṭṭu, uru paṯṟum; tēḍiṉāl ōṭṭam piḍikkum. ōr.
English translation: Grasping form, the formless phantom-ego rises into being; grasping form it stands; grasping and feeding on form it grows [spreads, expands, increases, rises high or flourishes] abundantly; leaving [one] form, it grasps [another] form. If sought [examined or investigated], it will take flight. Investigate [or know thus].
அகந்தையுண் டாயி னனைத்துமுண் டாகுSince the ego will cease to exist if we investigate it keenly enough, and since nothing else (except ourself as we really are) can exist if it does not exist, Bhagavan concludes this verse by saying: ‘ஆதலால், யாது இது என்று நாடலே ஓவுதல் யாவும் என ஓர்’ (ādalāl, yādu idu eṉḏṟu nādal-ē ōvudal yāvum eṉa ōr), ‘Therefore, know that investigating what it is alone is giving up everything’. That is, if we investigate this primal entity keenly enough, it will cease to exist and all other entities will cease to exist along with it.
மகந்தையின் றேலின் றனைத்து — மகந்தையே
யாவுமா மாதலால் யாதிதென்று நாடலே
யோவுதல் யாவுமென வோர்.
ahandaiyuṇ ḍāyi ṉaṉaittumuṇ ḍāhu
mahandaiyiṉ ḏṟēliṉ ḏṟaṉaittu — mahandaiyē
yāvumā mādalāl yādideṉḏṟu nādalē
yōvudal yāvumeṉa vōr.
பதச்சேதம்: அகந்தை உண்டாயின், அனைத்தும் உண்டாகும்; அகந்தை இன்றேல், இன்று அனைத்தும். அகந்தையே யாவும் ஆம். ஆதலால், யாது இது என்று நாடலே ஓவுதல் யாவும் என ஓர்.
Padacchēdam (word-separation): ahandai uṇḍāyiṉ, aṉaittum uṇḍāhum; ahandai iṉḏṟēl, iṉḏṟu aṉaittum. ahandai-y-ē yāvum ām. ādalāl, yādu idu eṉḏṟu nādal-ē ōvudal yāvum eṉa ōr.
அன்வயம்: அகந்தை உண்டாயின், அனைத்தும் உண்டாகும்; அகந்தை இன்றேல், அனைத்தும் இன்று. யாவும் அகந்தையே ஆம். ஆதலால், யாது இது என்று நாடலே யாவும் ஓவுதல் என ஓர்.
Anvayam (words rearranged in natural prose order): ahandai uṇḍāyiṉ, aṉaittum uṇḍāhum; ahandai iṉḏṟēl, aṉaittum iṉḏṟu. yāvum ahandai-y-ē ām. ādalāl, yādu idu eṉḏṟu nādal-ē yāvum ōvudal eṉa ōr.
English translation: If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [the ego] is alone is giving up everything.
As Bhagavan says in the first sentence of the seventh paragraph of Nāṉ Yār?, ‘யதார்த்தமா யுள்ளது ஆத்மசொரூப மொன்றே’ (yathārtham-āy uḷḷadu ātma-sorūpam oṉḏṟē), ‘What actually exists is only ātma-svarūpa [the ‘own form’ or real nature of oneself]’, so no entity ever actually exists, but so long as the first entity, the ego, seems to exist, other entities will also seem to exist, because it can never seem to exist without projecting and grasping other entities, some of which (such as a body) it takes to be itself. However if we look at this first entity keenly enough, we will clearly see that what seemed to be this ego is only ātma-svarūpa, the nature of which is just pure, infinite, indivisible and immutable self-awareness, so no such entity as the ego has ever existed as such, and hence no other entity has ever existed either, nor has any entity ever even seemed to exist (because they could seem to exist only in the view of the ego, which itself does not ever seem to exist except in its own non-existent view). To see this, all we need do is look at ourself carefully enough to see what we actually are.
244 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 244 of 244Sanjay Lohia,
regarding your statement "As you imply, we should be sensitive to the pain we may cause to plants and other sentient beings, and should avoid that. As long as we experience ourself as this person called Ravi or Sanjay, we would not like to experience any pain. Likewise the plants and other sentient creatures are as real as Ravi or Sanjay, and therefore we should try and treat them as we would like others to treat us. "
I would like to add that we should treat also our whole planet as a sentient being.
Therefore we should handle all our environment with extreme care. That begins aready with avoiding of pollution of nature. When I first came to India/Tamil Nadu in January 2000 I could not believe how careless was the dealing with rubbish and plastic garbage even on Arunachala Hill let alone along the girivalam road/pradakshina/circumbalation.
nivrtti,
"I would like to add that we should treat also our whole planet as a sentient being"
Wonderful point...It would be extremely useful to go into it as a separate discussion...Not that it is unrelated to what we are discussing at the moment...Thanks for bringing it out.
Namaskar
nivrtti, yes, public hygiene is not our forte in India, and therefore you may find rubbish and garbage at the wrong places. We Indians are rich in spiritual heritage, but poor in maintaining our public places. Obviously, the westerners know more about the things of this world, and they are also much more organized, and therefore they keep their public places in a much more orderly manner.
Yes, we should take care for our environment, but we should not spend too much attention on these issues. Our paramount duty in to know who we actually are, and we can do so only by frequent self-investigation.
Even if so solve all our environmental issues, many other issues are always awaiting our urgent attention. So we will never be able to mould this world to our liking. However, we can destroy this world by destroying our ego, because this world is nothing but the projection of our ego. This way we will cut at the root of all our worldly problems.
sanjay Lohia/Friends,
"However, we can destroy this world by destroying our ego, because this world is nothing but the projection of our ego."
hmmm....
All the sages who have vanquished their ego have been the greatest benefactors of the world...Bhagavan has said that by his very presence the jnani benefits the world...so,this needs to be investigated carefully.
Just to put things in perspective...a sadhaka who works 10 hours in an office for his livelihood,does not consider that a needless preoccupation which eats up his sadhana time or as a diversion...the very same person would consider even spending 10 minutes of time towards taking care of environment or other related matters as a needless diversion from spiritual orientation...this seems to be the mindset of the present day times.
The other thing is that although in general the East-West mindsets have oriented themselves along different lines,it is also true that the Indians of today have little knowledge of their cultural,social,political,commercial,historical aspects and how everything revolved around the spiritual...and the modern educational system imported from the west has only served the bread-winning part of life...fitness and survival, more than education has become the standard norm and in this fast paced world,even spiritual objectives are considered in similiar fashion...it is the job of 'others' to attend to such secular matters and the 'sadhaka' who is dependent on the services of 'others' for his own living, does not consider it his outlook to pay attention and contribute!
The Fundamental reason is that we do not realize the fact that there is ONE LIFE undivided...that we are the world and it is not apart from it...our well-being is inextricably linked with it...It is the 'ego' sense that is the cause of isolation...We may explore this dimension as it is very very important for Sadhana...In fact as devotees of Bhagavan,it is time that we take a look at the lives of the 63 saivaite saints...Bhagavan used to visit the meenakshi temple at Madurai and pray before the images of the 63 Saints that he too should be blessed with such devotion.
What sort of a life that these 63 saints lead?Did they insulate themselves from social activities?NO...some of them performed the service of cleaning up temple premises,Nandanar dug a pond so that it would be beneficial for the devotees,others prepared food and invited devotees and served them,etc...So,it is clear that such activities are not inimical to spiritual purposes;to the contrary,if done with the right spirit,they would put the sadhana into top gear.
The only caution is to do these things for superficial reasons-as a 'nice' thing to do and getting caught up in such activities forgetting the main purpose.
We may go into the aspect of 'We are the world' aspect and all other things that Nivritti had raised also would be viewed in their proper perspective.
Namaskar
Friends,
Errata:
"Please read this as "The only caution is 'NOT' to do these things for superficial reasons-as a 'nice' thing to do and getting caught up in such activities forgetting the main purpose".
The 'NOT' was inadvertently omitted...sorry.
Namaskar
Ravi, I thank you for your various comments. These exchange of comments has two fold benefit: One, its main benefit is that it encourages us to practise Bhagavan’s teaching of self-attentiveness, and two, it purifies our mind: that is, it reduces our attachments to other things, because we start getting attached to Bhagavan’s teachings.
Now I will try and respond to a few of the points raised by in you. You quoted Bhagavan in where he says (in Talk 2): ‘the identification with the body being lost, there are no perceptions’.. It is true, because when our ego is destroyed, we lose identification with our body, and without a body we cannot perceive any world. Bhagavan teaches us this truth in verse 5 of Ulladu Narpadu:
If we scrutinise, the body is a form composed of five sheaths. Therefore, the five sheaths are all included in the term ‘body’. Does the world exist apart from the body? Say, is there anyone who without a body has seen a world?
You say, ‘...the Guru is valid only when the Disciple is valid’. Yes, it is true. Guru is considered to the guru only in relation to a disciple. Why? Because a real guru does not consider himself to be guru, because in his non-dual view there are no others, hence there are no disciples. Yes, as you imply, as long as we consider ourself to be a person, we cannot avoid looking at our guru as a body. But the question is he the body/person we take him to be? Bhagavan has repeatedly asserted that he is not the body. He is our real self.
You ask: ‘?...Is it possible to perceive the world and its beings as the Self?'. No, it is not possible. Either we experience ourself as we really are (real self), or we experience a world. We cannot experience both together. Bhagavan makes this clear in the third paragraph of Nan Yar?:
If the mind, which is the cause of all [objective] knowledge and of all activity, subsides, jagad-dṛṣṭi [perception of the world] will cease. Just as knowledge of the rope, which is the base [that underlies and supports the imaginary appearance of a snake], will not arise unless knowledge of the imaginary snake ceases, svarūpa-darśana [true experiential knowledge of our own actual nature or real self], which is the base [that underlies and supports the imaginary appearance of this world], will not arise unless perception of the world, which is an imagination [or fabrication], ceases.
(I will continue this in my next comment)
In continuation of my previous comment addressed to Ravi:
You ask: ‘In other words,to put it simply...is it possible to go into this without trying to put it on stilts by quoting bhagavan?’ You imply, if I am not wrong, that we should discuss Bhagavan’s teachings without quoting Bhagavan. I am not sure why you feel this way. How can we discuss Bhagavan’s teachings without quoting Bhagavan? His teachings are like our law-books. A lawyer or a judge has to repeatedly refer to these law-books in order to correctly interpret the law, likewise we need to constantly refer to Bhagavan’s teachings to correctly interpret his teachings.
As you say, Bhagavan did say in GVK that ‘by his very presence the jnani benefits the world’. Yes, as long as we consider this world to be real, we will also mistake the jnani to be a person, and the seeming presence of that person benefits the seeming world by its mere presence. These things are beyond the grasp of our intellect.
You also say, ‘So,it is clear that such activities [of sadhakas] are not inimical to spiritual purposes;to the contrary,if done with the right spirit,they would put the sadhana into top gear’. Our body, speech and mind will be made to act in various ways in accordance with our prarabdha, as Bhagavan’s teaches us through his note to his mother.
However, our task is to remain quiet even in the midst of such bodily activities. Let the activities of the body go on, it will not affect us as long as we do not try to attend to those activities. In other words as long as we keep our attention on ourself, we will not create agamya, nor will we experience prarabdha.
Sanjay Lohia,
My objective in proposing to discuss 'the sensing of pain' and 'We are the world' based on our own observations,experiences and validations...and to set aside all the teachings that we have borrowed from whatever sources...it is not that we are going to discard those teachings or that we are disrespectful to the Guru,etc.
The reason that I am proposing this is that it may perhaps help us to get a better grasp of those teachings...If it is okay with you,we may go ahead...if not,we need not...either way is fine with me.
Namaskar
Sanjay ,
yes it is of prime importance to come to know who we actually are.
According to Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi only persistent and frequent self-investigation will lead to the destruction of the spurious ego and thus reveal our real nature.
However, self-investigation as taught by Bhagavan does not need to be carried out (only) by sitting in a meditation room. Rather it should and can be done incessantly under all conditions.
So practising self-investigation does not come into conflict with keeping clean rivers, lakes, watering places, fields, forests and mountains and so on.
The amount of cleanness in our natural environment is a direct reflection of the loving dealing of people with the nature in their immediate surrounding vicinity.
Love for our environmental issues stands in direct context with purity and peace in our mind as well the inside of the people and their outside influence each other in mutual interconnection or interaction.
For an example : Can one actually endure that a beautiful pool/tank of clear spring water or rainwater embedded in the natural and peaceful valley of an even holy mountain is badly polluted with all kinds of plastic refuse ? No, of course we will pick it up and take it to the next dustbin/garbage can.
Doing such cleaning work cleans not only the outside nature but also our inner health.
I am sure that Bhagavan would not tolerate for instance the total pollution of the banks of the adjoining Agastya Tirtham in Palakothu with rubbish if he were still in the body. (Seen by me in February /March 2017).
We should not overlook that keeping the unspoilt nature of our earth clean, unpolluted and unadulterated will produce the effect of necessary education to be inwardly clean and tidy.
Are not the most dirty/filthy areas of our cities (with lacking refuse disposal) often the most crisis-prone spheres and thus scene of high crime or criminality ?
Friends,
Warmly recommend this talk By J Krishnamurti...will help all those interested in Vichara ...
"Is it possible ever to be free of self-centred activity? Is there a real self? - J. Krishnamurti"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05buQAWFab8
Namaskar
Friends,
How does observation reduce the strength and power of emotions and attachments? - J. Krishnamurti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KCisTIAAFI&index=41&list=PLCE7DF5C902D7B848
Wonderful talk ....Clarity...warmly recommended
Namaskar
Friends,
Is there one thing or one quality that will end my seeking and my confusion? - J. Krishnamurti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIpYwaqM2vo
Must watch...Warmly recommended.
Namaskar
Friends,
How can the idea that 'you are the world' be justified? - J. Krishnamurti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIMeM3DFHmI
Warmly Recommended.
Namaskar
Ravi,
we should investigate who is the questioner of all the questions put by J. Krishnamurti whom I consider as an earnest and ardent seeker.
nivritti,
"we should investigate who is the questioner"
That is what JK is asking one to DO...see it as a Fact what the 'Ego' is...not to say it is there and is spurious and elusive,etc...and see that attachment is what has given rise to that...and if we see it as FACT and not verbally,the attachments drop away.
What We consider JK is immaterial...Who is the 'one' who 'considers'?Where did this opinion that JK is an 'earnest and ardent seeker' originate?....Are they not thoughts based on knowledge stored in one's memory with which we compare what is said?...where there is this sort of a comparison,there is no listening...and listening is key to understand what is said.
Namaskar
Friends,
If we truly understand what Bhagavan has said regarding self enquiry,We will understand that what JK is saying is no different...so,listening to JK is a way to see whether we have understood Bhagavan....or have we only bought into the scaffolding of words and ideas of the philosophical premise,leaving aside the core essence of enquiry?...If we understand the essence,we would not miss it irrespective of the way it gets expressed...like if we know a person we recognize him whether he is dressed in a suit or whether sports shorts.
Namaskar
Friends,
The Essence is here.Excerpt from Bhagavan's 'nAn yAr':
"அன்னியத்தை நாடாதிருத்தல் வைராக்கியம் அல்லது நிராசை; தன்னை விடாதிருத்தல் ஞானம். உண்மையி லிரண்டு மொன்றே."
"Not to seek anything other than self is Vairagya or nirasa;Not to let go of self is jnana.In Truth both are one"
This is the essence of self enquiry...What JK is pointing out so clearly is that the 'ego' is just put together by 'seeking things' and attaching to such things...The 'Things' may be material or psychological-like name,Fame,security,etc...He is pointing out that it is the attachment that has isolated us (the ego sense) and if we can clearly observe nakedly that this is ACTUALLY so,then this very seeing it as a FACT would free us from attachment.
What we do is to toy with the IDEA that attachment is indeed binding and that we should do something about it sometime or other...and then we look for a method or means to get rid of it...and justify that it should necessarily take time and that a minute,an hour,a day or a year may not be sufficient...and we hope one day we would be free of attachment and the SELF will be realized...and that there would then be no world to bother about and only the Self...Until such a time arrives,we need to live a double life...we need to attend to the world (minimize it as much as possible...meaning do not bother if anyone else suffers for after all it is his prarabdha) and PRACTISE(not live) atma vichara...we become votaries of Atma vichara.
Namaskar
Shantammal, Ramana Smriti,
ETERNAL BHAGAVAN, pg 142
=============================
A visitor while taking leave of Bhagavan expressed a wish that Bhagavan should keep him in mind as he was going very far away and would probably not come back to the Ashram. Bhagavan replied:
A jnani [?] has no mind. How can one without a mind remember or even think? This man goes somewhere and I have to go there and look after him? Can I keep on remembering all these prayers? Well, I shall transmit your prayer to the Lord of the Universe. He will look after you. It is his business.
Ravi,
you might listen to your heart and do not hesitate to apply the recommendation given to me also and primarily to you.
If one has truly understood Bhagavan's teaching there is no need to additional studies.
Of course all suffering is our prarabdha. But to say "do not bother if anyone else suffers for after all it is his prarabdha" is the greatest insolent remark I ever heard from India. Presumably that is the reason why untold suffering experienced in India today did not come to an end.
nivritti,
" do not hesitate to apply the recommendation given to me also and primarily to you."
Quite correct.
"do not bother if anyone else suffers for after all it is his prarabdha" is the greatest insolent remark I ever heard from India. Presumably that is the reason why untold suffering experienced in India today did not come to an end."
Yes ,I have only pointed out that this is what happens when we do not understand the teachings and live it...I do not subscribe to this erroneous view...Infact the Vedic Teachings as well as the teachings of all the masters till date expect us to view the world as not apart from us.
It is not that this sort of 'isolation' is prevalent ony in India,it is prevalent in a more aggressive and violent form in the rest of the world...It is what has resulted in Terrorism and wars.
We shall see how the teachings of the Vedas is to promote complete harmony with all beings and environment...I intend sharing some of it here...All these are not for 'comparing' and 'contrasting' but to gain better clarity and conviction is whatever we are after.
Namaskar
"I tell you one thing—if you want peace, do not find fault with others. Rather see your own faults. Learn to make the world your own. No one is a stranger, my child; the whole world is your own."-Sri Sarada Devi’s last words, spoken before passing away on July 20, 1920.
Ravi,
we are all brothers and sisters, is it not true ?
So let us strive to give our best contribution to that truth. Let's make our best endeavours to eliminate our fiercest enemy i.e. ignorance and blindness - each to the best of one's ability. Fortune smiles on us because we can take all great jnanis and sages as a model.
Nivritti,
Thanks very much ...I totally appreciate what you have said.
Namaskar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5MR7pBFA0k
What is myself and what is its relation to the cosmos? - J. Krishnamurti
Friends,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aLnJtZgyY
In Total Silence The Mind Comes Upon The Eternal-J Krishnamurti
This is a longish talk and the speaker takes time going over the mechanics of thought and how it is always limited,how it brings about division-the controller and the controlled and perpetuates conflict,how Observation of this helps end this conflict...and goes on to distinguish Silence-The outer silence,the inner one brought about by thought and finally the Silence that is not put together by thought and is like a rock...I am posting these links as I consider these would be helpful for anyone who has been doing vichara for sometime...there is no doctrine in these talks and they are completely rational... Please give it a try.
Namaskar
From Ramana Smriti, The Bhagavan I knew.
==================
A widow arrived one day, entered the Hall and bowed to Bhagavan. He looked at her closely and started laughing. "Oh, it is you.'' he said. The woman got confused, covered her face with her white widow's sari and hid herself in a corner. Bhagavan continued with a broad smile: "When I was a boy her people were our neighbours and she was their little girl. It was agreed between our parents that she would be my wife in due course. I was very fond of helping my mother in the kitchen and her mother used to grumble that she would never marry her daughter to a fellow who likes to spend his day near the stove, like a woman. Anyhow I was not fated to marry. But had I married her, what would have been my fate!" Everybody had a good laugh at Bhagavan's narrow escape.
Anonymous,
it would not have been to my disadvantage if I had married Bhagavan Ramana.
He would have liked to stay with me - of course only for some time only.
Then I would have had to share him for the benefit of all mankind. Ha, what a crazy idea !
Ravi,
before you recommend to study further talks of J.Krishnamurti you may read Michael's article of Monday, 11 May 2015
"Observation without the observer and choiceless awareness: Why the teachings of J. Krishnamurti are diametrically opposed to those of Sri Ramana".
Namo Ramanaya,
Thanks...Yes...I have seen that article as also other articles ...these comparisons and contrasts arise on account of 'thought' that tends to differentiate what it holds onto from other things...and 'thought' can never grasp the root of anything...so,we may take it all with a pinch of salt.
Here is one conversation with JK with Dr Allan W.Anderson that would give a taste of what JK is trying to point...and it is absolutely no different than what Sri Bhagavan has pointed out...Just give it a try and listen to the conversation setting aside all knowledge that one is holding onto...Just this one conversation would suffice...I would summarize it as 'The Art of Dying':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H0hyleK9Vg
Death & Rebirth-Dr Allan W Anderson in conversation with J Krishnamurti
If you ask me,I will say that there is absolutely no difference between what JK and Bhagavan or any other sage has taught...those differences exist only in the 'me' and not actually.
Namaskar
Friends,
"Water is water whether it is calm or full of waves and bubbles. The Absolute alone is the Primordial Energy, which creates, preserves, and destroys"-Sri Ramakrishna
What JK points toward the end in that conversation'Death & Reincarnation'-that Death,Life and Love are one movement and not different from each other-It is the same as what Sri Ramakrishna has said.
Those interested may also listen to this talk of JK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwCvbSiRkM8
Is there any survival after death? - J. Krishnamurti
Namaskar
I simply feel that the philosopher J Krishnamurti has not at all experienced the same depth of awareness as the sage Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi. Therefore I do not feel any reason to listen to him.
Friends,
A short excerpt of the video talk already posted ...those who are curious even if not seriously interested may like to go through this 16 minutes excerpt:
"I am not talking for my benefit...I have talked for 52 years...I am not interested in talking...but I am interested in finding out if you can also discover the same thing...so that your own life will be totally different"...and he goes on to the discovery of silence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpi2H3nahdE
It does not matter whether JK was just an ordinary philosopher or may be not even that...if he has something to share that may be beneficial to me,that is all that matters to me.
It is said that the great sage Dattatreya had 24 upagurus...Earth,Sky,wind,Water,Fire,sun,moon,pigeon,python,ocean,moth,Bee,elephant,deer,fish,honey gatherer,Hawk,the courtesan pingala,the Child,The hunter,The spider and The caterpillar...He learnt something from each of his upagurus.
In the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna ,the master says:" The Mother reveals to me that She Herself has become everything. One day I was coming from the pine-grove toward the Panchavati. A dog followed me. I stood still for a while near the Panchavati. The thought came to my mind that the Mother might say something to me through that dog. "
The vedas also say:'Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah': Let noble thoughts come to me from all directions.
Namaskar
Salazar,
"Friends", don't get fooled by the pundit of the Michael James blog.
He certainly like to hear himself talk ;-)
Good to hear from you after a brief interval..I quite agree with you...that is what Jk is pointing out in that video...to discover the Truth in oneself.
Namaskar
Ravi,
where else if not in oneself could the truth be discovered ?
Friends,
I have shared what i found beneficial...may be it was all elementary for you...thanks for putting up.
Namaskar
Talk 285.
D.: If the Self be itself aware, why am I not aware of the same, even
now?
M.: There is no duality. Your present knowledge is due to the ego and only
relating. Relative knowledge requires a subject and an object. Whereas
the awareness of the Self is absolute and requires no object.
Remembrance also is similarly relative, requiring an object to be
remembered and a subject to remember. When there is no duality,
who is to remember whom?
D.: What happens to the created ego when the body dies?
M.: Ego is ‘I-thought’. In its subtle form it remains a thought, whereas
in its gross aspect it embraces the mind, the senses and the body.
They disappear in deep slumber along with the ego. Still the Self
is there; similarly it will be in death.
Ego is not an entity independent of the Self in order that it must be
created or destroyed by itself. It functions as an instrument of the
Self and periodically ceases to function. That is to say, it appears
and disappears; this might be considered to be birth and death.
Relative knowledge pertains to the mind and not to the Self. It is
therefore illusory and not permanent. Take a scientist for instance.
He formulates a theory that the Earth is round and goes on to prove
it and establish it on an incontrovertible basis. When he falls asleep
the whole idea vanishes; his mind is left a blank; what does it matter
if the world remains round or flat when he is asleep? So you see
the futility of all such relative knowledge.
One should go beyond such relative knowledge and abide in the Self. Real
knowledge is such experience and not apprehension by the mind.
In response to the discussion between Salazar, Sanjay, Ravi and others in these comments about whether we should consider choosing to eat meat to be determined only by prārabdha (fate or destiny) or whether free will has any role in it, I have written an article: If we choose to do any harmful actions, should we consider them to be done according to destiny (prārabdha)?
Regarding Namo's suggestion to read the blog entry from 2015:"... Why the teachings of J. Krishnamurti are diametrically opposed to those of Sri Ramana".
I have never heard Sri Ramana critique the teaching of Krishnamurti or Nisargadatta not even once. This regular criticism against K and N and others is NOT Sri Ramana's teaching. Comparing and defending against other teachings is solely the work of Michael James. This outward competition distracts from inward practice. Find a guru that resonates with you... and stop wasting time in criticism of those who are different. All real jnanis come from the same source but they speak somewhat differently. Why become competitive about the differences?
The last paragraph of the 2015 blog: "The choice we are faced with is therefore very simple: do we want to follow the teachings of Sri Ramana by trying to attend to ourself alone, or do we want to follow any other teachings that direct us to attend to anything else?"
This places Michael James' interpretations in competition with other teachings and invites the reader to make allegiance to Michael James. But the only true authority is within and insistence on this outward rigid authority blocks inward discovery.
This issue is especially heinous considering "Talks" where Bhagavan repeatedly and widely accepts many other teachings.
Why are teachings of "K" and "N" "diametrically opposed to those of Sri Ramana?" It is very important to note that this conflict is with the interpretations of Michael James and not Bhagavan's actual teachings.
The 3 works that Michael translates suggest the following:
We must place attention on Self alone and exclude all else. The world, body and thoughts must be excluded from attention leaving Self alone in total isolation. And... this is the ONLY way.
The only error I see in this is the statement is: "this is the ONLY way". In fact this is the basic flaw in Michael's teaching: constant reliance on "this is the ONLY way". We should have faith and confidence in our practice... but outward competition with other teachings suggests a lack of confidence, it suggests insecurity.
Krishnamurti and Nisargadatta (as well as Bhagavan in other works and many many other jnanis) go into detail about how to isolate Self with some aspect of the world remaining in awareness. This complements the approach of finding Self in total isolation and the individual may choose one approach or the other or both.
If you find Self in total isolation... but then while eating or talking the attention on Self is lost... then deeper attention on Self is possible. How to maintain attention on Self while eating your meal may be useful. Savikalpa Samadhi is the lesson on Samadhi with "changes", or Samadhi with the presence of "objects" in awareness.
Michael's teaching is solely about excluding the world totally, in fact, when this is successful, the world is said to be "dead" and ceases to exist. This approach is appropriate for those who want to pursue life as a total recluse. But even for the recluse there will be various activities in the world that cannot be avoided... therefore, it is useful to hear about the approach for finding Self in activity.
"K" and "N" should be welcomed or at least respected.
Roger Isaacs,
does any world seem to exist when the mind has sunk down ?
Does not a world appear (to exist) only when the ego-mind has arisen/sprung up ?
Salazar,
Robert's above explanation does not convince me completely because in my perception it does not radiate full lucid clarity to which I lay claim.
Salazar,
I wanted to express that I set great store on greatest possible clarity.
I do not shrink from the declaration that I consider Bhagavan's grandeur as unique and beyond compare. May I out of deep gratitude never fail to recognize that.
Hi Babuji,
>> does any world seem to exist when the mind has sunk down ?
Rather than "exist", I would say "seen":
The world is no longer seen when attention is turned away from it. Attention may be turned away either in sleep or temporary nirvikalpa samadhi (or after I eat a large dessert of cake and ice cream this can also cause manolaya). Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the same as atma vichara according to MJ in the blog "atma vichara and nirvikalpla samadhi".Nirvikalpa Samadhi is "no world, no body" in awareness, exclusive attention on Self with no objects present in awareness.
But as long as one is alive in a body... the world appearance will return, even after enlightenment, otherwise, how could the enlightened interact in the world? When the world temporarily ceases to be seen, we can infer that the world continues when our attention is turned away from it as various processes continue (clocks advance etc).
The world and/or body has multiple levels: just one example, the hindus describe "three bodies", the buddhists "trikaya" (three bodies). Us a-jnanis know the world as the physical layer. With more refined knowledge, the other more subtle layers may be realized. You say the world is "ego-mind", does that mean all the subtler layers are ego too?
After enlightenment, surely the world continues in awareness in some way.
Bhagavan MUST have had the world in his awareness, or knew the world as "Self" (he says "world is Self" in Talks), otherwise he would have been unable to be in the world as he did. It seems to me that Bhagavan must have known all the subtler layers of the body and world, his awareness was no longer confined exclusively in the physical. In that regard, we could say that the physical layer ceased to exist in some sense because the subtler layers had priority for him?
>> Does not a world appear (to exist) only when the ego-mind has arisen/sprung up ?
As with most questions, the answer could be: yes, no, or maybe etc... just depending on the perspective. This is way it is,right? No words can ever describe the ultimate state, not even all the words from all the gurus together would be sufficient. Better just to be aware of different descriptions and not be attached to any of them.
From the perspective of a style of meditation seeking nirvikalpa samadhi (samadhi without changes) or atma vichara alone, because this state is "no body, no world" in awareness, from this perspective, yes, if the world arises in awareness this might be called "ego".
But from the perspective of savikalpa samadhi (samadhi "with changes") Self is known WITH the presence of the world in some way. So in this regard the world appearance is not necessarily ego. Because Bhagavan has some type of awareness of those he talked with in the world... would we say that he had an ego? Absolutely not, no ego ever for Bhagavan. So from this perspective the world is NOT ego. Bhagavan said that when he was interacting with others in the world it was Savikalpa Samadhi.
So I am just saying "not this" alone to your statements, the situation could be described in other ways.
Krishnamurti and Nisargadatta devote themselves to locating Self with world still present in awareness, and Michael James prefers Self alone with no objects present. All maybe useful.
Babuji, well said and my best wishes for you.
Hi Salazar,
thanks for sharing Robert, he is good.
Regarding "if it makes you happy...": real happiness is not dependent on any object. I like the teaching that we should strive for "no unhappiness" as happiness from objects is transitory.
I have read a lot of JK. Sometimes during some periods I like him, and other times I have difficulty understanding him. I never really got the "observer is the observed" till I read Osho who said "what Krishnamurti is trying to say is: the double arrow of attention: one arrow outward and another inward simultaneously". Then I understood.
You say "it is about transcending the phenomenal world": there is a teaching: "transcend... and include", thus: transcend the body... and include although on a subtler level.
You say: "You question how to maintain attention to Self while eating (could be also working) is from the perspective of the doer, that doer will never succeed in that."
When you find a style that resonates with you, the doer is able to assert increasingly refined Self Attention till the doer and any effort disappear leaving simple pure Self Attention. "Who Am I?" may involve a doer initially, a doer is asking the question, but if it is successful the doer melts away and simple effortless Self Attention remains. This is the same for many approaches: if you use a mantra successfully, the mantra will disappear leaving Self Attention, if you use "not this" negating thoughts and emotions when it is successful... pure Self Attention remains. And so with all of life, all of life in activity has the potential to be pure Self Attention without a doer... or more specifically in the case of eating... without a "chewer".
you say: "what ever comes up in the form of a thought deserves to be discarded"
yes, exactly. You and I seem to have a strong affinity to "discard" also known as "not this". But even "not this" must be discarded. Then there is simple pure Self Attention.
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